A noob question, but how do you actually shift gears on a mower?

Since at least on my JD the clutch is also the brake, so are we always supposed to be stationary???? And are the gears more like a what you are pulling, tho I notice I almost do wheelies with my JD in 3rd.

We separate the clutch and brake linkage so we can run separate pedals.

Ah yea that's right, I've seen that. Won't do that to my JD, but good to know. Thanks

what i wonder. are transaxles syncro mesh, constant engagement, or are they locking.

Stretch might understand that, but it just sailed right over my head LOL

crafsmankiller wrote:

what i wonder. are transaxles syncro mesh, constant engagement, or are they locking.

Yup, Tractor transaxle gearboxes are syncromesh boxes. I have never see a crash box on a lawn tractor. I'm sure back in the 40's and 50's they had crash gearboxes, same as cars and trucks but nowadays almost all proper manual gearboxes are syncromesh. Lawn tractor boxes have 2 or 4 sliding metal bars with stubs on them that lock the gear to the axle so the torque goes though that gear. Same principle as a manual gearbox in a car, apart from they use a ring with stubs instead of a bar with stubs.

The first pic is the shifting bars from a lawn tractor gearbox.
The second is a dog ring from a car gearbox. Same basic principle.




Here is the gearbox from my tractor. As you can see, its a syncromesh box.


A crash box basically has two shafts with the gears fixed to the shafts. Changing gear requires you to double clutch, first when you go out of a gear and again when you engage another. One of the shafts slides allowing you to change gear. When in first gear, only those two cogs will be engaged. 2, 3 will be set next to each other but not engaged.

This pic should explain it better than I can over the interweb.


Ill try and make a video explaining the principle of the two types on the weekend if you want.

Thunderdivine wrote:

Ah yea that's right, I've seen that. Won't do that to my JD, but good to know. Thanks

Dont suppose your Deere has a hill stop by any chance? If it does you could just use that pedal as a brake and remove the clutch brake linkage.

Doug Fackler wrote:

Thunderdivine wrote:

Ah yea that's right, I've seen that. Won't do that to my JD, but good to know. Thanks

Dont suppose your Deere has a hill stop by any chance? If it does you could just use that pedal as a brake and remove the clutch brake linkage.

Handbrake? Yeah it does.

Thunderdivine wrote:

Doug Fackler wrote:

Thunderdivine wrote:

Ah yea that's right, I've seen that. Won't do that to my JD, but good to know. Thanks

Dont suppose your Deere has a hill stop by any chance? If it does you could just use that pedal as a brake and remove the clutch brake linkage.

Handbrake? Yeah it does.

Yea, that. I know with my GT, it has a seperate hill stop that links up to the caliper along with the connecting rod for the clutch. When I get to rebuilding, I plan on just not putting the connecting rod in. You could probably do the same with yours, depending how it is set up.

Cool thanks will check it out.

My little ford has a peerless 600 and the big one has a peerless 2300.

Both tractors say on the decal to stop before shifting gears.

Neither are synchro

CornishMorgan wrote:

crafsmankiller wrote:

what i wonder. are transaxles syncro mesh, constant engagement, or are they locking.

Yup, Tractor transaxle gearboxes are syncromesh boxes. I have never see a crash box on a lawn tractor. I'm sure back in the 40's and 50's they had crash gearboxes, same as cars and trucks but nowadays almost all proper manual gearboxes are syncromesh. Lawn tractor boxes have 2 or 4 sliding metal bars with stubs on them that lock the gear to the axle so the torque goes though that gear. Same principle as a manual gearbox in a car, apart from they use a ring with stubs instead of a bar with stubs.

The first pic is the shifting bars from a lawn tractor gearbox.
The second is a dog ring from a car gearbox. Same basic principle.



Here is the gearbox from my tractor. As you can see, its a syncromesh box.

A crash box basically has two shafts with the gears fixed to the shafts. Changing gear requires you to double clutch, first when you go out of a gear and again when you engage another. One of the shafts slides allowing you to change gear. When in first gear, only those two cogs will be engaged. 2, 3 will be set next to each other but not engaged.

This pic should explain it better than I can over the interweb.
[

Ill try and make a video explaining the principle of the two types on the weekend if you want.

A correct explanation is here.

http://www.albinsgear.com.au/SyncroVsDog.php

my peerles 700 is crash. i can shove it in gear moving, but its hard as hell. and if im pointed up or down a hill stopped, i cant get it out of gear.

Chopperhed wrote:

CornishMorgan wrote:

crafsmankiller wrote:

what i wonder. are transaxles syncro mesh, constant engagement, or are they locking.

Yup, Tractor transaxle gearboxes are syncromesh boxes. I have never see a crash box on a lawn tractor. I'm sure back in the 40's and 50's they had crash gearboxes, same as cars and trucks but nowadays almost all proper manual gearboxes are syncromesh. Lawn tractor boxes have 2 or 4 sliding metal bars with stubs on them that lock the gear to the axle so the torque goes though that gear. Same principle as a manual gearbox in a car, apart from they use a ring with stubs instead of a bar with stubs.

The first pic is the shifting bars from a lawn tractor gearbox.
The second is a dog ring from a car gearbox. Same basic principle.



Here is the gearbox from my tractor. As you can see, its a syncromesh box.

A crash box basically has two shafts with the gears fixed to the shafts. Changing gear requires you to double clutch, first when you go out of a gear and again when you engage another. One of the shafts slides allowing you to change gear. When in first gear, only those two cogs will be engaged. 2, 3 will be set next to each other but not engaged.

This pic should explain it better than I can over the interweb.
[

Ill try and make a video explaining the principle of the two types on the weekend if you want.

A correct explanation is here.

http://www.albinsgear.com.au/SyncroVsDog.php

If I read that and the wiki page correctly then what your saying is the difference between syncro and dog it the way the gear get locked to the shaft, eg syncro has a cone collar that allowing slippage, dog designs have a notched ring to prevent slippage between the gear and output shaft when shifting.

When say your 600 and 2300 aren't syncro boxes. Could you expand on that? are the gears constantly engaged? looking on the service manual for the 600, it looks like the whole shift assembly with the gears and shaft slide from side to side, is that true?
Might be worth making a new topic for it.

Ignore me if i got my last post completely wrong, but I'm still learning and until I take every type of gearbox that even been made apart, Ill never know
I was just trying to explain the basic principle between a crash box and a constantly engaged box.

crafsmankiller wrote:

my peerles 700 is crash. i can shove it in gear moving, but its hard as hell. and if im pointed up or down a hill stopped, i cant get it out of gear.

Try double clutching. When you shift, press the clutch fully to take it out of gear and release the clutch, then press the clutch again fully to engage another gear. It will be tricky on a tractor but should be just about possible.

i havent pulley swapped this mower yet. so i dont have time to clutch at all. i usually just shove it in different gears. i know its bad for it but its the only way to keep moving, specially when im on a hill. cause it wont go out of gear on a hill.

edit: it has the clutch and brake on the same pedal, id have to lose brakes to actually use the clutch, plus the belts drags a little bit. so even when it is clutched and the brakes on, i can put it in gear and it'll 'jerk' when the gear catches

CornishMorgan wrote:

Chopperhed wrote:

CornishMorgan wrote:

crafsmankiller wrote:

what i wonder. are transaxles syncro mesh, constant engagement, or are they locking.

Yup, Tractor transaxle gearboxes are syncromesh boxes. I have never see a crash box on a lawn tractor. I'm sure back in the 40's and 50's they had crash gearboxes, same as cars and trucks but nowadays almost all proper manual gearboxes are syncromesh. Lawn tractor boxes have 2 or 4 sliding metal bars with stubs on them that lock the gear to the axle so the torque goes though that gear. Same principle as a manual gearbox in a car, apart from they use a ring with stubs instead of a bar with stubs.

The first pic is the shifting bars from a lawn tractor gearbox.
The second is a dog ring from a car gearbox. Same basic principle.



Here is the gearbox from my tractor. As you can see, its a syncromesh box.

A crash box basically has two shafts with the gears fixed to the shafts. Changing gear requires you to double clutch, first when you go out of a gear and again when you engage another. One of the shafts slides allowing you to change gear. When in first gear, only those two cogs will be engaged. 2, 3 will be set next to each other but not engaged.

This pic should explain it better than I can over the interweb.
[

Ill try and make a video explaining the principle of the two types on the weekend if you want.

A correct explanation is here.

http://www.albinsgear.com.au/SyncroVsDog.php

If I read that and the wiki page correctly then what your saying is the difference between syncro and dog it the way the gear get locked to the shaft, eg syncro has a cone collar that allowing slippage, dog designs have a notched ring to prevent slippage between the gear and output shaft when shifting.

When say your 600 and 2300 aren't syncro boxes. Could you expand on that? are the gears constantly engaged? looking on the service manual for the 600, it looks like the whole shift assembly with the gears and shaft slide from side to side, is that true?
Might be worth making a new topic for it.

Ignore me if i got my last post completely wrong, but I'm still learning and until I take every type of gearbox that even been made apart, Ill never know
I was just trying to explain the basic principle between a crash box and a constantly engaged box.

crafsmankiller wrote:

my peerles 700 is crash. i can shove it in gear moving, but its hard as hell. and if im pointed up or down a hill stopped, i cant get it out of gear.

Try double clutching. When you shift, press the clutch fully to take it out of gear and release the clutch, then press the clutch again fully to engage another gear. It will be tricky on a tractor but should be just about possible.

My understanding is that syncrmesh system uses cone clutches to spins up the next gear between shifts.

Garden tractors use what I think is called a constant mesh system, where all the gears are spinning, and gears are selcted by moving dogs back and forth on the shaft.

So I got the principle correct but not the terminology. Well.....I stand corrected.
I've even learned something in the mean time...YAY!!!

Aren't they called forks?

Dogs, forks, same thing, its the things Morgan posted.

Doug Fackler wrote:

Dogs, forks, same thing, its the things Morgan posted.

Two seperate different parts

Technically the only types of transmissions/transaxles that can be shifted w/o stopping are the MTD variable type ( 'transmission' is actually a variable pulley- no gears in it- the transaxle is a 'single' speed setup)- and the other is a 'shift on the go' or 'shift on the fly' transmission- usually in 90's murrays.


The shift on the go setup is pretty interesting - it actually uses a basic peerless transmission under it, the neat thing is when you pull the shift lever in tward you to shift up higher, that actually activates the clutch slightly with linkages.

Its clutch free shifting up thru the gears, but you do need to clutch while downshifting tho.

I ran that setup on my mod murray, it worked awsome- just let off the gas for a second, shifted, then hit the gas again.

Typically tho for any other type of tractor ( unless it states in owners manual) - you need to stop and shift, or risk destroying the trans.

dangeroustoys56 wrote:

Technically the only types of transmissions/transaxles that can be shifted w/o stopping are the MTD variable type ( 'transmission' is actually a variable pulley- no gears in it- the transaxle is a 'single' speed setup)- and the other is a 'shift on the go' or 'shift on the fly' transmission- usually in 90's murrays.


The shift on the go setup is pretty interesting - it actually uses a basic peerless transmission under it, the neat thing is when you pull the shift lever in tward you to shift up higher, that actually activates the clutch slightly with linkages.

Its clutch free shifting up thru the gears, but you do need to clutch while downshifting tho.

I ran that setup on my mod murray, it worked awsome- just let off the gas for a second, shifted, then hit the gas again.

Typically tho for any other type of tractor ( unless it states in owners manual) - you need to stop and shift, or risk destroying the trans.

Great info thanks

You can shift my Dynamark while moving by pressing the clutch It even says so on the sticker on the "dash" of the lawnmower. I assume this means for you to do it while riding because the lawnmower would not be completley stopped with the brake halfway down.

I have been "hotshifting" the Craftsman Rally just fine. It has a regular Foote gearbox.

Kind of have to anyways if I gear in over 3rd otherwise itll lurch on me or stall the motor.

So I read in the Peerless manual, goes for all Peerless I guess, from N - F you will have to use the clutch and from N - R and R - F - N you should use clutch, but in between gears you don't have to use any clutch.